Episode #007 of the podcast: Active listening
Active listening
Dive into the art of listening with Stéphane and Nadia, and explore the secrets of physical synchronisation, open questions and emotional connection. Let yourself be guided by practical tips for creating an environment of trust and decoding the profiles of the people you speak to. Explore the nuances of authenticity and managing emotions in a sales context. As a bonus, discover a simple "three, two, one" technique to energise your conversations. Dare to test your level of active listening with our exclusive mini-test. An immersive experience that will revolutionise your sales approach. Ready to sharpen your listening skills?
To contact Stéphane or Nadia, feel free to call +32 2 702 64 74 or send us an e-mail!
Let yourself be carried away by this episode packed with practical advice.
Headphones on, get set, listen!
Stéphane: Hello and welcome to this new episode of the "Performance & Harmonie" podcast, produced by PHCom in the Transforma BXL studio with technical support from The Podcast Factory Org. Nadia: The Performance & Harmonie podcast is aimed at marketing and sales managers, as well as company directors who take on sales responsibilities. Stéphane: Every month, we share good practices in finding new clients for companies active in business to business. Nadia: You can find every episode on the phcom.be website, P-H-C-O-M, as well as on all the major podcast platforms. Stéphane: You can support this podcast and boost its visibility by sharing it as widely as possible with a like, a comment, a share. Nadia: The answering machine is still active so you can leave us a message, and we are always delighted to reply. Stéphane: You can also book an appointment directly with Nadia or Stéphane by going to phcom.be Nadia: See you soon. Stéphane: Hello, Madame Harmonie. Nadia: Hello, Monsieur Performance. How are you today? Stéphane: Very, very well. In fact, we're going to come back to a topic you touched on briefly a few podcasts ago when we were talking about questions: we're going to talk about active listening. I'm very surprised, because there are no lessons at school on active listening, which is a real shame, because listening isn't that simple, is it? Nadia: Indeed, it's not a spontaneous talent; we aren't born with it. It's an attitude that needs to be practised and perfected. It is first and foremost a state of mind that gives the other person room to express themselves at their own pace, in their own words. Listening is not hearing; listening is taking action, it's deciding to create a space for listening. Stéphane: So we talk about active listening or empathetic listening; that comes from Carl Rogers, an American psychologist who is highly regarded for his person-centred approaches. What does he say? He says that empathetic listening makes us available to others and to their world of codes and meanings. As a reflex, the other person feels understood and uses their energy not to defend or attack, but to exchange, reflect and find solutions. Nadia: Active listening is a person-centred approach. Stéphane: Madame Harmonie, when it comes to active listening, I imagine there are attitudes to adopt and others to avoid. What do we prioritise first and foremost? Nadia: First and foremost, it's our presence: we have to be fully there, both physically and mentally. We have to leave the other person space to unfold their thoughts, and listen to them. This attitude isn't natural, indeed; it has to be learnt. So we have to start by simply accepting that sometimes, in a conversation, there will be silences. You'll have to rephrase sentences, you'll have to ask good open questions; that's what will make the person feel safe with you. And you have to give them a climate of trust. And a climate of trust comes, for example, from being in sync with them physically. Stéphane: Physical synchronisation or otherwise – an example of synchronisation? Nadia: Physical synchronisation simply means that if you're standing, sit down facing the person. You don't have a discussion with someone where one person is sitting and the other standing, for example, because that immediately gives the one standing a feeling of dominance. And the other one, who is below, feels dominated. So by sitting face to face or next to someone, you can really synchronise your gestures too. If they smile, you smile; if they tilt their head, you slightly tilt yours to the same side, and that will reduce the unknown for the other person. It's also about the words we use, it's about our voice; it's always the same goal. The goal is to reduce the other person's moment of uncertainty and insecurity, because they don't know you. Stéphane: Using their verbal language, their own words, is that it? Nadia: Exactly, it's really about connecting to their world, so if they use the word money, well, use the word money. If they talk to you about comfort, talk about comfort; that reminds us a little of the SONCAS. Stéphane: Let's say they talk to me about money, so I go along with them and ask questions in that direction. Am I going to cover the other SONCAS? For example, am I going to talk about security, am I going to talk about novelty, to investigate? Nadia: Let's say that they're the one who will show you the way. In other words, if they talk to you about money, you have to try, together with them, to understand what matters to them financially. If they talk to you about comfort, well, you'll rephrase by asking what is important to you in terms of your logistics? Stéphane: Is it still part of active listening if, afterwards, I do ask questions myself, saying "OK, when it comes to novelty, are you very open to innovation?", or perhaps better, an open question: "innovation – how does that work in your company?" Nadia: Exactly, active listening starts the moment the person speaks. That's when I'm going to give them my full attention and, for example, rephrase what they've told you. If there are words you don't understand, don't hesitate to step in at that point and explain that it isn't part of your jargon. That will show how genuinely interested you are in the person. Stéphane: OK, so all the questions I have in my little salesperson's head, that I want to ask because I want to know everything about them before I start making my pitch, that's steering, it's not really active listening. Nadia: Let's say you already have to let go of all those questions a bit. So we'll go question by question, and bounce back with new questions based on what the person you're speaking to gives you. Stéphane: OK, I'm starting to understand a bit better, to grasp the difference between active listening and questioning. Nadia: Exactly, in fact we put our brain at rest a little. We all tend, and it's perfectly human, to already be preparing our next questions, our next pitch, and that's what we'll have to let go of. The pitch will come at the moment when the person you're speaking to gives you the topic you need to talk about. Stéphane: Yes, a classic: I ask a question, I don't listen to what they're telling me because I'm busy thinking about my next question (Nadia: Exactly). Disaster! Nadia: Absolutely, and there's nothing more irritating than feeling you're not being heard, or that you have to repeat yourself because the person doesn't seem to have understood. Stéphane: OK, so what are the pitfalls to avoid when it comes to active listening? Nadia: Interrupting, for a start. So we really let the person finish their thoughts. Ask open questions, unless there's a very specific reason for a closed question, which can of course happen; for example, it can be a closed question that steers: "By the way, are you available tomorrow?" That is indeed a closed question. Bad attitudes are also non-verbal, meaning looking at your mobile phone while someone is talking to you, or tapping away on a keyboard. If you want to take notes, do so, but by interrupting – while listening, for example, you can also say "Just a moment, I'm making a note" and then you resume your listening or your conversation. Stéphane: Mmm, that's really important, indeed, saying "I'm writing this down because it's very important, I really wouldn't want to forget it". Nadia: Exactly. There are a few other techniques: prompting with short words of encouragement, such as "Yes, I understand. Could you explain that again?", rephrasing the message to be sure you've understood correctly and to show them you've really listened. Listening, bouncing back, using what the other person has said to move forward. Stéphane: Another classic is simply repeating word for word what the other person has said. We do exercises like that in our ImproTraining sessions where you just have to repeat the sentence, just one sentence, but how hard it is to repeat a sentence exactly as it was said! And yet it opens up the discussion. I also have another technique, which consists of getting the other person to say things rather than saying them yourself. So first and foremost, you need to know how to silence your own discourse in order to focus all your attention on the other person's, OK, and at the same time we'll want to guide them towards where we want them to go. In fact, I always have this image of the billiard ball rolling, rolling, rolling, and all it takes is a tiny grain of salt for the ball to go somewhere else. So, in a sales conversation, slipping in a little word while the other person is talking, while they're explaining – is that still active listening, or is it steering the conversation? Nadia: I'd say that interrupting a person means no longer being with them; you have to let them finish their thought. Stéphane: Yes, but at the same time, in sales, we always say that whoever asks the questions is in control. So I'm always steering. Nadia: True, true, true, but that's not active listening. Stéphane: OK, well, the classic of active listening, the one I've always heard about, is: open questions, not stifling questions – that's part of it. Nadia: To be sure you hear what the person you're speaking to really has to say, you need to ask them open questions, not immediately close things down by asking closed questions, and avoid suggesting the answer in the way you phrase the question. Stéphane: We've already talked about it but I love it: the POCCQQQ technique. For example: these are questions that start with Why, Where, How, How much, Who, What, When? Along the lines of "What does your job involve? What led you to make that decision? How did you go about solving this problem?" Nadia: And so avoid closed questions such as "You're not having any problems at the moment?" Stéphane: Yes, we could turn it into a positive, such as: "What difficulties do you encounter in your work?" Nadia: Exactly. Stéphane: So that's asking the right questions, which we already covered in a previous podcast. Nadia: Another technique? Nadia: Adapting to the profiles of the people in front of you according to models such as: active, passive, open, closed, RAMI. Stéphane: So, the active, passive, open, closed model: an active open person, for example, is someone who will react quite easily to everything you say to them, but the principle will be to build things together with them. Whereas an active closed person, who obviously has all their own good ideas, you'll have to make sure the idea comes from them. A passive person who is open is the one who will say "Yes, yes, yes" to everything you suggest, so with that one, well, you can take them by the hand and guide them. The passive closed person, on the other hand, may have had bad experiences, so you'll need to reassure them and give them lots of examples. And so, with profiles like these, listening to them is different in each case. Nadia: And I imagine it's also about choosing the words that touch them, that suit them. Nadia: It's about providing a safe environment, so it's your mindset that comes into play. Taking a real interest in the other person – I insist on really – really understanding their situation; the person you're speaking to will feel that interest and understand its purpose: finding the best solution for them. The goal? What is going on with the other person? And being able to identify the person's real need. This mental attitude will therefore show in your body, in your non-verbal language: attitudes, gestures, clothing, positioning, eye contact. And paraverbal: pace, volume, accent, emphasis, pauses, intonation. But you'll also need to think about the verbal: choice of words, sentence structure. Stéphane: CCC: Short, Clear, Concise. So all in all, I think that in terms of mental attitude, to be convincing, you have to be convinced. When you propose a solution, you have to be 100% convinced that it's the best one for you and for the other person. Without that, ultimately, it will be impossible to convince the other person in the context of a long-term relationship. For example: if I propose a product that I don't yet know well and that may not meet the client's expectations, those are all doubts, and in the end, well, it won't work. And so in an active listening phase, it's already extremely important to have that confidence in your product, in your offering and also in your own abilities: confidence, confidence, confidence. Nadia: Yes, there are also other things to think about: attention, focusing on one topic; connection, prior knowledge, related fields, which strengthen the relationship; interaction, eye contact, the body, words, note-taking; steering, moving on to another topic, continuing or not. Stéphane: And here, once again, we come back to active listening in a sales context, that is, knowing when to stop, when you know you've really covered all the topics and can move on to the next stage, that is, making your case and then closing... Nadia: Yes, and also daring to take a different path to reach the same goal. Stéphane: That works well, doesn't it? When you talk about something else, when you surprise them with an example from your own experience or bring up a completely unexpected topic, or use hard facts such as statistics or figures published in the press, well, it encourages the other person to talk a little more. So, when it comes to empathetic listening or active listening, emotions are often mentioned too. What do you have to say about emotions? Nadia: Let's say emotions have their rightful place. I think that at a certain point, when we can express our emotions or let the person in front of us express theirs, we can really say we're in a more authentic relationship. Stéphane: That means that if I feel an emotion, I can share it, and that will create authenticity, and a mirror effect in the other person. Nadia: Yes. For example, you can say I'm really surprised that you tell me you buy that at that price. Stéphane: It's true that they'll talk much more. Nadia: Exactly, they'll help you, and you'll be able to dig deeper that way. If, for example, your client is dissatisfied, or your prospect is unhappy because you promised to call them and didn't, you have to be able to hear that anger or frustration. And you have to be able to say to them "I hear that you're angry, I hear that you're frustrated about this", and that will immediately allow the other person to feel they can trust you because they're being heard. Nadia: Exactly, and that's why you have to say it. Simply say "Well, look, I'm a bit uncomfortable, but I don't really understand your field because I've just started. But there you go, I'm listening, and what you tell me will certainly teach me a lot" Stéphane: So talking about emotions also works in sales. It's not just about having armour plating and following your script. Nadia: And putting words to your emotions, that is, "That scares me, I have a doubt". That also stops the other person from making up a story behind what they're observing. Stéphane: Not making up a story behind what they're observing means: not letting them judge, letting their mind wander and make assumptions, when that's exactly what you mustn't do. Nadia: Exactly. If, for example, I simply say that I'm a beginner in the field and that I still have quite a lot to learn on the technical side, on a human level they'll also adjust to my level, and they'll help you too. Most of the people in front of you are ready to help you, so don't hesitate to say so. Stéphane: Clear, good advice. One more little technique before we go: do you know the three, two, one? Nadia: Oh no, I don't know that one. Stéphane: OK, it's very easy, and you can really put it into practice this evening with your partner, or with your friend or your colleague. Do three, two, one: for three minutes, you let the other person explain their problem. For two minutes, you comment on it, you give your point of view. For one minute, the other person concludes, or the other way round, right? That works too. So: three, two, one – three minutes to explain, two minutes to comment, that's the other person talking, and one minute to close, that's you finishing. In short, at the end of the day, know how to put yourself in the other person's shoes: that's empathy. If you want to test your level of active listening, ask us for a mini-test; we'll send it to you in five minutes, and you'll be enlightened. Nadia: Thank you, Monsieur Performance. Stéphane: You're most welcome, Madame Harmonie, it's a pleasure. Nadia: What will the topic of the next podcast be? Stéphane: Well, we're going to come back down to earth a little, it seems to me, since we'll be talking about classification and segmentation. In short, very technical, sales-related things... Nadia: Great, well, see you soon! Stéphane: Thank you.Podcast outline:
Podcast transcript:
Stéphane: Exactly, because ultimately someone who is like me, who works like me, is someone I can trust. And so trust in the service of listening also means reassuring them about the confidentiality of the conversation, or letting them know that you won't judge.
Stéphane: And, conversely, in prospecting, if you have a doubt, if you feel uncomfortable with something, the other person will immediately sense it too.
